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  1. #1
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Default Opening a can of worms




    Please scroll through to 2:30 until 4:10

    Guys, I need your input. Over the weekend we had the biggest Australian race of the year at Bathurst for the V8 Supercars. It was a monster race and an epic weekend. The massive bone of contention is the incident with Whincup, Tander and McLaughlin. These 3 guys were leading the race after 151 laps and were getting ready to battle it out for the last 10. All have admitted at the time that they were conserving fuel for the last 5 laps. The main issue is with Whincup's move on McLaughlin coming into the Chase, where he just slightly tapped McLaughlin off the road. The collision came after the corner as Whincup was re-addressing immediately so as not to get a drive through penalty. He then held up Tander and created a bottleneck onto the straight.

    Whincup was given a 15 second penalty during the race which was added to his time at the end of the race. He actually crossed the line in first but the whole day was so close, that he was relegated to 11th. The main issue I have with the situation is that the Red Bull Team are appealing the penalty in court, meaning the winner of the race could be decided some 8 weeks after the race has been concluded. A bit unfair, not just for the winner, Will Davison, but for Tander and McLaughlin who crashed out.

    Now my opinion is that Whincup locked the rear tyres up coming into the Chase corner, meaning that technically he was not in control, and therefore in the wrong. Also that he did not need to re-address straight away, it could have been done 1 or 2 corners later, when all 3 cars had gathered themselves up. This would have let Tander into 1st, McLaughlin into 2nd and Whincup into 3rd. At least then all 3 could legitimately fight to the end of the race.

    This has caused a massive storm in the press and on social media this week, and thought who best to ask, than the people I race fairly with every week. It would be great to hear your opinions, as we have issues similar to this online and we re-address without causing the chaos that happened this year at Bathurst.

    Cheers

    GleNRG
    Last edited by AOD_Danneskjold; 10-12-2016 at 08:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Save your breath. You'll need it to blow up your date! AOD Member AOD_ZedZedski's Avatar
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    Default

    I don't know driver names but I can tell that the white Volvo driver was just being an ass-hat. He got a contact with RedBull car on chicane while being on the outer side of the corner and then he just decided to get a revenge by hitting him out on the straight but caught the other car. Same thing happens in the Racing Sims we play online. You overtake somebody and the other guy just gets pissed off and just crashes in you at full speed.

    How ironic but similar situation here in iRacing around 1:12


  3. #3
    Danneskjold Repossessions.
    AOD_Danneskjold's Avatar
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    Default

    Did they not have spotters?

  4. #4
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Nah, no spotters, but they do have their engineer on the radio. It just happens so fast that maybe a spotter is not a bad idea, just not sure how that would work across the mountain.

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  5. #5
    Ever notice how fast Windows runs? Neither did I AOD Member AOD_jooldst's Avatar
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    No spotters in road racing in real life.
    Also car on the inside tried too hard. Didn't leave the car on the outside any room and then yeah, that's some rookie like behaviour from both of them afterwards trying to do things in the most awkward way with the other car getting caught up in it.


  6. #6
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    That video is very ironic Zed. Almost identical, I forgot about the Slow down penalties we get online, would have the same outcome for us, as the "re-address" rule the V8 Supercars have would have been immediate. But Scotty who was in the white car was actually going wide to let him through, and Whincup in the Red Bull had a crack at filling the gap. I guess what has blown Social Media pages is that he locked the rear ever so slightly while passing, which caused Scotty to be knocked off the road.
    Also with the penalties, Scott got a 25 championship penalty for a dangerous re entry. It would be a shame for the sport if Whincups court appeal holds up and the time penalty is lifted.
    I guess the other thing is Jamie Whincups approach to Bathurst. He is bloody fast, broke the lap record 10 times during the race. He just gets the Red Mist in his eyes, and over the past 8 years has made so many stupid mistakes at Bathurst which have cost other people the win.
    Its great to get an outsiders view of it all as we Aussies luv to hate Whincup, and I will admit I am slighly biased. Thanks guys.

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  7. #7
    Save your breath. You'll need it to blow up your date! AOD Member AOD_ZedZedski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOD_GleNRG View Post
    But Scotty who was in the white car was actually going wide to let him through, and Whincup in the Red Bull had a crack at filling the gap.
    I watched frame by frame, he was not going wide enough. RedBull was literally on the inner side and yes his rear end got oversteering. As a result, RedBull slide into White Volvo. The reason why RedBull had this oversteering was because White Car cut him off and if you watch frame by frame you can see it. So it was a normal overtaking accident but White Car was just being an ass-hat for cutting the whole corner on full speed over the grass and then trying to do a revenge by hitting out that RedBull car but failed to do that and hit the other guy instead. You can clearly see from his cockpit view that he saw both cars coming at him, he even turned his head to check on it.

  8. #8
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Default

    Love your work Zed. I think more than anything, this is highlighting my bias against Whincup, hehe. He is the guy we all love to hate. 5 time champion, multiple Bathirst winner etc. He is the Schumacher of our sport, and does not play well with others. Thanks for giving some balance to this discussion.

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  9. #9
    Save your breath. You'll need it to blow up your date! AOD Member AOD_ZedZedski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AOD_GleNRG View Post
    Love your work Zed. I think more than anything, this is highlighting my bias against Whincup, hehe. He is the guy we all love to hate. 5 time champion, multiple Bathirst winner etc. He is the Schumacher of our sport, and does not play well with others. Thanks for giving some balance to this discussion.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
    Well, even Schumacher had his fights :-)
    He was about to smash David Coulthard head at the Pits after the accident in 1998.


  10. #10
    Jack Kevorkian for White House Physician AOD Member AOD_Saikotek's Avatar
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    Default

    I believe I have a different opinion here.

    From what I see, the 33 moved to the right, presumably to get closer to a racing line going into the corner. Of course this opened the door for RedBull to initiate a pass, which he seemed to be committed to long before the first vid even started.

    As they follow through, it seems as though 33 stays a little wide, perhaps purposefully, perhaps due to understeer, either way, there seems to be a car width of track between 33 and the apex which could be counted as room. Not racing room in my opinion, but room all the same. Hell, 33 could have even done it purposefully to make RedBull slow down enough to completely ruin the passing attempt. I don't know.

    RedBull initiates the contact by over driving the car into the corner. It was ever so slight, and showed to have great control of the car, but the contact was still initiated by RedBull as the aggressor who initiated the pass.

    I'm not up to speed on most rule books anymore, but when I read them before, they usually stated something along the lines of "The obligation falls upon the driver initiating a pass to do so in a safe manner."

    Carrying too much speed into a corner can be considered "unsafe." Therefore, RedBull could be deemed at fault for the first contact and penalized as such.



    I suppose you could also argue that 33 should have been able to see RedBull's intentions into the corner based on his driving line and given more room. I'm not sure how more modern rule books look at that situation.



    As for the second contact, I don't know. I'd like to see some in car footage of 33 to confirm my suspicion of him keeping the throttle applied the entire time in the grass, but without that, all I can see is the tires keep spinning. A driver can always argue hitting the brakes in the grass is the worst thing you can do. I'll tend to agree, though the amount of track time and momentum he lost seems incredibly minimal for someone not trying to race back to the track. I'm fairly sure with on-board footage you'll hear he stays in the throttle which will tip the scale of blame for the second impact heavily toward him.

    Even forgetting about the entire bit of being in the grass, the rejoining of the track seems like it could go both ways. On one hand, one could argue he tried to rejoin and head straight to the racing line to minimize time lost. In this case, Once again, I don't know what modern rule books say about this, I only know of iRacing's stating something like "It is the obligation of the driver merging onto the track to do so in a safe manner, and only when traffic is clear and the track is safe may the driver then merge into the racing line."

    In this case, yes, 33 could be found at fault, and issued a penalty for himself.

    On the other side of that argument, one could say based on the angle of the car as it passes the fence, and comes back onto the track, he is clearly trying to minimize the angle of re-entry and stay out of traffic, however, a bump unsettles the car, forcing him to chase the car farther out onto track to keep it under control.

    Based on that, the only way he could have avoided contact would be to lock up the brakes in the grass, which could have possibly ended up with him in the fence with the speed and angle he went in.

    I don't know about all of you, but if it's only a few cars, I'll take a shot at keeping my car pointed correctly and re-joining the track behind them. If there's an entire pack of cars around us, I'd lock it down and hope any impact will be minimal by the time I get there.



    If you really wanted to stretch it, you could argue that the Holden saw all of this unfold, tried to capitalize on it and initiated a pass on RedBull at a dangerous time with 33 sliding back onto the track.

    I honestly don't see that argument holding any weight no matter how hard you try, even if you argue that in the interview he said he saw 33 trying to re-join the track.



    That's what I see. In my opinion, the driver of the RedBull car could deserve a penalty for the initial contact, and if I could confirm with on-board footage that the driver of the 33 car maintained throttle input while off track, he could deserve a penalty for the second contact. As far as the driver of the Holden, just a bad time to try to pass.

    The driver formerly known as rsnake53


  11. #11
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Thanks for 5he input Saikotek. Car 33 was given a 25 championship penalty for a dangerous re entry. The problem with Whincup is that he addressed straight away leaving the Holden (Tander) forced to take evasive action. He just did it as Scotty (33) was coming back on the track.

    I still stand that Whincup should have re addressed when it was safe to do so, like at the Start/Finish line so that all 3 cars could compete for the win.

    As an update, Red Bull have taken the case to court to get the penalty changed to a 10 second penalty, from 15, as is stated in the rule book.

    Also the winner was Will Davison, who Red Bull, share garages with, and they have assured them they will keep the win, and not let the court decide on the winner.

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  12. #12
    Jack Kevorkian for White House Physician AOD Member AOD_Saikotek's Avatar
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    Was Whincup trying to re address, or did he just get a bad run out of the corner? We've all taken enough laps to understand he'll have a horrible exit speed based on how the entry went.

    What kind of regulations are there for giving a position back?

    After looking at the video again, looking from Whincup's POV, I can certainly understand wanting to give the position back as soon as possible to maximize that amount of time I have to try to regain the position. If I try to do it right at the same spot, I'll have it in my mind that I shouldn't move off of the racing line because Scotty will be coming back onto track there.

    I tend to agree with you though now that I better understand what the exact issue is. If he was trying to surrender the position, he could have certainly chosen a better place and time for it. Running that late into the race, I can understand it's hard to stay focused and keep track of everything, but this is a situation where safety was a factor, and should not be taken lightly. A driver needs to understand that things can happen from any where around them. If he's going to slow, it should become second nature to look in the mirror first.

    The driver formerly known as rsnake53


  13. #13
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Whincup admitted after the race that he was trying to re address the position. We will find out tonight the outcome of the court hearing, hopefully they just concede to getting a smaller time penalty instead of claiming the win.

    Whincup did finish the race in first but the celebrations for the real winner are long over, and it would be a shame for the sport to have it changed now. I will keep you posted of the outcome.

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  14. #14
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    So the decision has been handed down by CAMS court of appeal, and the case has been dismissed. Both sides of the argument (Stewards and Race Team) have laid down their debate and the officials have dismissed the case. Red Bull still have an opportunity to appeal in Europe at the FIA but i can assume that will be it.

    What an epic race. Once again the Mountain has delivered. This is why it is the greatest race in Australia. 161 laps and all it take is one small mistake and its all over. Cant wait until next year.

    Thanks for your input guys, having an experienced and un-biased view of the incident has really helped with my debates at work. GO AOD... 😎

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  15. #15
    Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue AOD Member AOD_GleNRG's Avatar
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    Default

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...29639190539931

    Its a bit long winded now but just found this video that summarises everything about this discussion. It was filmed a week ago now but has everything.

    Mark Larkham, who is presenting, is a former V8 Supercars driver and a former team owner. He one of the most passionate men in the sport and is now a commentator of the sport. We get a complete analysis by him before every race and I apprexiate his analysis here. Hope you enjoy.


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